Clarification
OK. My previous post contained a bit of amusing whining about the difficulty of getting hitched with only a small Orthodox community to provide prospective spouses.
My spiritual father, Fr. John McCuen of Holy Archangels parish, in Phoenix, had this to say in the comments area:
"OK, the "pool" isn't necessarily limited to available Orthodox females. You are permitted to marry a non-Orthodox woman; although you know quite well that such a relationship means additional struggles to resolve questions about how we live as Orthodox Christians. Will a non-Orthodox spouse be willing to keep the fasts? (And not just when it comes to food...) Will you raise your children in the Orthodox Church and faith, or some other? (NOT!)"
To wit I realized that I had left my gripe session a little unclear.
What I ment to go without saying, but I now realize I ought to have said, is that I cannot concieve of sharing my life and most intimage love with someone who's theology I know to be wrong. Not because I hold it against them, but because I cannot imagine waking up next to such a woman every day, being in love with her, and knowing she doesn't believe in the one true faith. Moreover, if she's with me, it certianly means that she's been exposed to it, and (if she's not Orthodox) rejected it. I have trouble imagining spending my life with someone who I know has false (if honest) religious beliefs, and may wind up in hell for them. I've got a better than even chance of going to hell myself, but at least I have the advante of belonging to the one true Church.
OK, that being said. How do you raise children in a household like that? Either God takes a second seat to diplomacy, or the kids learn at some point that mommy and daddy have an irreconsilable religious disagreement and that only one of these faiths can really help you get into heaven. Does that sound like fun to anyone?
Father John also makes another excellent point, he says:
"You said that you want a family. OK. What does God want from you, and for you? Hmmm? You should figure that one out; and, while you're working on discerning that, ask Him to bring you the woman He wants you to spend your life with. He will, you know, if that is His will for you. Otherwise..."
The damnable thing about advice from you Fr. is that it's always double edged. "Do the right thing, heres how to do it. By the way, by doing the right thing, theres a better than even chance you won't get what you thought you wanted." This especially ticks me off because he's right all the damned time. The issue here is that, if I've interpreted what I've read correctly, in a perfect world, we'd all forsake marriage, sex, families etc... and everyone would be a monk. No, I'm serious. The church fathers go to extensive lengths to point out that marriage is a good thing, but they go to even more extensive lengths to point out that celibacy is better. They, knowing their audience, lace these writings with commetns to the effect of "I know you are not going to believe me when I say this, but..." This is an irritating thing to be aware of. I've never met a parish priest that wasn't married. Conversely I've never met a parish priest that wasn't a convert. Back on the other hand, my understanding is that nearly all parish priests are married. Even the ones that were trained at Jordanville and born into the faith.
So...on the one hand I have what sounds like a choice with a clear, if totally undesireable, path (celibacy vs marriage). And on the other hand, I have an army of trained practicioners of the faith who are all married with kids. Are the priests setting a bad example? Am I overanalyzing the hell out of this? Someone stop me, please.
BAH!!!!!! Even if it's not as good as celibacy, all the church fathers agree that marriage is, unto itself, a good thing, for good reasons.
The really ironic thing about all of this is that the choice is not now, nor has it ever been in my hands, except where I"m willfully defying the Will of God. Ugh.
I suppose, just saying, that if I had an active prayer life (heres a confession), I might (you think?) have more contact with God. Gee, there's a brainstorm. Either it's too late and I'm tired, or I"m running late for school, or I just don't feel like it...blah, blah, blah...I'm a master of excuses and procrastination.
OK, fixing the problem: I should go and pray right now.
Easy enough.
Alexi
My spiritual father, Fr. John McCuen of Holy Archangels parish, in Phoenix, had this to say in the comments area:
"OK, the "pool" isn't necessarily limited to available Orthodox females. You are permitted to marry a non-Orthodox woman; although you know quite well that such a relationship means additional struggles to resolve questions about how we live as Orthodox Christians. Will a non-Orthodox spouse be willing to keep the fasts? (And not just when it comes to food...) Will you raise your children in the Orthodox Church and faith, or some other? (NOT!)"
To wit I realized that I had left my gripe session a little unclear.
What I ment to go without saying, but I now realize I ought to have said, is that I cannot concieve of sharing my life and most intimage love with someone who's theology I know to be wrong. Not because I hold it against them, but because I cannot imagine waking up next to such a woman every day, being in love with her, and knowing she doesn't believe in the one true faith. Moreover, if she's with me, it certianly means that she's been exposed to it, and (if she's not Orthodox) rejected it. I have trouble imagining spending my life with someone who I know has false (if honest) religious beliefs, and may wind up in hell for them. I've got a better than even chance of going to hell myself, but at least I have the advante of belonging to the one true Church.
OK, that being said. How do you raise children in a household like that? Either God takes a second seat to diplomacy, or the kids learn at some point that mommy and daddy have an irreconsilable religious disagreement and that only one of these faiths can really help you get into heaven. Does that sound like fun to anyone?
Father John also makes another excellent point, he says:
"You said that you want a family. OK. What does God want from you, and for you? Hmmm? You should figure that one out; and, while you're working on discerning that, ask Him to bring you the woman He wants you to spend your life with. He will, you know, if that is His will for you. Otherwise..."
The damnable thing about advice from you Fr. is that it's always double edged. "Do the right thing, heres how to do it. By the way, by doing the right thing, theres a better than even chance you won't get what you thought you wanted." This especially ticks me off because he's right all the damned time. The issue here is that, if I've interpreted what I've read correctly, in a perfect world, we'd all forsake marriage, sex, families etc... and everyone would be a monk. No, I'm serious. The church fathers go to extensive lengths to point out that marriage is a good thing, but they go to even more extensive lengths to point out that celibacy is better. They, knowing their audience, lace these writings with commetns to the effect of "I know you are not going to believe me when I say this, but..." This is an irritating thing to be aware of. I've never met a parish priest that wasn't married. Conversely I've never met a parish priest that wasn't a convert. Back on the other hand, my understanding is that nearly all parish priests are married. Even the ones that were trained at Jordanville and born into the faith.
So...on the one hand I have what sounds like a choice with a clear, if totally undesireable, path (celibacy vs marriage). And on the other hand, I have an army of trained practicioners of the faith who are all married with kids. Are the priests setting a bad example? Am I overanalyzing the hell out of this? Someone stop me, please.
BAH!!!!!! Even if it's not as good as celibacy, all the church fathers agree that marriage is, unto itself, a good thing, for good reasons.
The really ironic thing about all of this is that the choice is not now, nor has it ever been in my hands, except where I"m willfully defying the Will of God. Ugh.
I suppose, just saying, that if I had an active prayer life (heres a confession), I might (you think?) have more contact with God. Gee, there's a brainstorm. Either it's too late and I'm tired, or I"m running late for school, or I just don't feel like it...blah, blah, blah...I'm a master of excuses and procrastination.
OK, fixing the problem: I should go and pray right now.
Easy enough.
Alexi
posted by Alexios at 9:00 AM
3 Comments:
Today, we test the limits (literally!) of the Comments section...
First, with respect to your questions about mixed marriages: your analysis is "spot on." It is difficult to imagine sharing your life with someone who has rejected -- or, maybe more charitably, simply declined to share -- your faith; unless your faith has little meaning for you, in which case it will be easy to do. Likewise, the children will very definitely pick up on the tension of the dichotomy; and the little boogers will exploit it for all they're worth! All in all, not a good situation -- which is why we tend to recommend against it. It is, however, permitted, even if not wise.
Since I like the imagery, let me re-state your second argument using the chorus of sheep from Orwell's Animal Farm: "Marriage good, celibacy better!" OK, it's a little obscure. Hey, if you don't get it, read the book!
OK, you wrote, "In a perfect world, we'd all forsake marriage, and like in celibacy as monks." Of course, if it was a perfect world... [ironic grin] Actually, no. The fathers recognized how marriage establishes in us a "divided loyalty" -- we cannot be constantly focused on doing the will of God when we must also focus attention on our spouse, or our children. Our earthly responsibilities to our families -- food, clothing, shelter, and so on (high-speed internet access?) -- can, and do, interfere with total devotion to God. The actual number of people who are equipped to live in such a state as monasticism is small -- although we probably tend to make it even smaller, because we have learned to enjoy the comforts and pleasures we have in this life.
There are two ways to go, I think, in considering this: the western way (think: RC), and the Orthodox way. In the western model, following Augustinian teachings, sex is evil, fallen; and so a life of celibacy is superior to a married life. (The sheep here are chanting, "Marriage bad, celibacy good!") Of course, non-celibacy is necessary for the continuation of the human race; and I can't help but wonder if the Augustinians secretly wonder why God plays such a bizarre joke on us, having designed us to reproduce in a way that is, to them, evil... By contrast, the Orthodox understanding does not produce the "two strata" model of "Celibacy good, marriage bad"; but rather the chant of the sheep first noted above.
It's not a two-tiered way; it's a spectrum -- for in the Orthodox way, we share a common journey; monks and married persons each living the same way of life, of prayer, and fasting, and giving, and spiritual struggle. Here, the monks are the "special forces" types, while the married folks are the "grunts" (don't go there!) in the spiritual warfare we all must endure.
As for priests setting a bad example: I'm sure I do so constantly -- but not because I'm married with children!
Wow!!
What an awsome comment!!
Anyway, like I said, it's a moot point. Because the flock is thin enough that, unless God spesifically wants me to get married, it's unlikely to happen. Though it'd be nice if he offered me the choice.... =)
Alexey,
I just wanted to agree so much with your comments about marriage v monasticism. It does seem a constant struggle in our minds and hearts as to which is the right choice.
Mat I introduce you to my priest, Archmandrite (yes, that is correct, a preist/monk) Nektarios at his website of http://www.serfes.org/index.htm
I have only really known Father Nektarios, having only breifly ever met a married priest, so for me the opposite of familiarity is true. The idea of a married priest is foreign to me.
Ok, I was getting off topic there. I guess all I wanted to say was that I whole hearted agree with your sentiment that confusion lie therein. Marriage v celibacy is not and easy choice; and trying to discern God's will for one's life is even more difficult, especially when living in this corrupted world.
May God Bless you.
Regards,
Elizabeth, age 31 (single) in Boise, ID.
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